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IPC-2581

Printed From: PCB Libraries Forum
Category: PCB Footprint Expert
Forum Name: Questions & Answers
Forum Description: issues and technical support
URL: https://www.PCBLibraries.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=886
Printed Date: 19 Nov 2024 at 2:42am


Topic: IPC-2581
Posted By: sgdavies
Subject: IPC-2581
Date Posted: 14 Mar 2013 at 2:19am
Hi All,

Just wondering, If anybody yet on here had made the leap to exporting IPC-2581 to manufacture? If so I would be very interested to know your results, good,bad, ugly etc, and especially if you are into getting Quality DFM/DFA Reports from the IPC-2581 database from your chosen EMS? 

Currently im in negotiations with our EMS companies to get DFM/DFA reporting, most of them have never heard of IPC-2581, and are even reluctant to go with ODB ++ (I want to move away from Gerber)

I have tested both formats here, and love the Downstream viewer for IPC-2581, on the other hand the Mentor viewer for Cadence ODB Inside (seriously sucks) and you have to keep on doing translations to use the thing (when it works).

Anyways any and all thoughts are welcome Smile

Regards
Stephen Grant-Davies



Replies:
Posted By: Tom H
Date Posted: 14 Mar 2013 at 7:15am
PCB Libraries, Inc. is on the IPC-2581 committee (Consortium). The standard is being developed under the leadership of Cadence. The IPC-2581 standard has been around for 13 years. The only reason why Cadence is spearheading this effort is because Mentor Graphics acquisitioned Valor and acquired ODB++. So Cadence is trying to create an alternative "intelligent" manufacturing interface to compete with ODB++.
 
Here is the IPC-2581 member page:
http://www.ipc2581.com/index.php/members-on-top" rel="nofollow -
 
However, Mentor Graphics is fighting hard to keep ODB++ on top of the industry's top manufacturing interface and they are forming their own committee (Consortium).
 
Check this out:

http://www.pcb007.com/pages/zone.cgi?a=90045" rel="nofollow -

 

The Valor (Mentor) Genesis v10 can support IPC-2581. The license is US $5,150.

 

You will see that over 50% of the IPC-2581 members are also ODB++ members.



Posted By: sgdavies
Date Posted: 14 Mar 2013 at 7:20am
Cheers Tom Thumbs Up


Posted By: sgdavies
Date Posted: 14 Mar 2013 at 7:39am
Hi Tom, Regarding the IPC-2581 import, Forgive me as i dont know too much about the Mentor Product line or how they are marketed, but are you talking about the Vsure Product? or?
http://www.mentor.com/products/pcb-system-design/fabrication-assembly-test/vsure/



Posted By: Tom H
Date Posted: 14 Mar 2013 at 7:44am
Valor (Mentor) front end for PCB fabrication supplied by Orbitech is "Genesis".
 
Mentor owns 50% of Orbitech. Orbitech provides the hardware for direct imaging and Mentor provides the software for the hardware.
 
Valor Enterprise is a PCB design DRC checking tool which also outputs ODB++. Enterprise turned into "Vsure".
 


Posted By: sgdavies
Date Posted: 19 Mar 2013 at 5:33am
It would be nice if mentor Vsure imported IPC-2581, but that might be an up-hill battle.

Does anybody know how good DFM verification software is for IPC-2581? there are 3 viewers that i am aware of:-

1) Downstream technology
2) Wise
3) Easy Logic

So does anybody know how good the DFM verification software is from these vendors? and how good they are compared to Vsure? and of course there is the price?


Posted By: Tom H
Date Posted: 19 Mar 2013 at 6:46am

Think DFA too, it’s very important.

 

Today, a surprisingly large percentage of PCB designs are sent to manufacturing through decades old approach of sending multiple files and formats. This approach can and does introduce many errors and ultimately adds extra cost through time spent on ensuring the data that is sent through multiple files and formats is consistent. In addition, there is cost incurred through scrap. Systems companies use this approach as they want to create internal processes that are not dependent on proprietary formats.

 

IPC-2581 provides the PCB industry with an opportunity to replace multiple files and formats with a neutral, open, globally supported standard and save millions of dollars caused by outdated numerous file formats used to drive PCB manufacturing. With the adoption of any standard, the supply chain has to adopt this standard from producers, consumers and supporters all using an open, neutral and efficient specification. It’s the old chicken and egg scenario – which comes first? Solving this age old problem is the focus of a new consortium of PCB design and supply chain companies who have come together to enable, facilitate and drive the adoption and usage of IPC-2581.

 

We have been using printed circuit board (PCB) formats for manufacturing and assembly which were defined 30 years ago mainly for numerically controlled manufacturing units.

 

With increased complexity of Printed Circuit Boards in terms of number of layers, number of pins / Vias, Miniaturization with ever decreasing form factor and sensitivity of traces due to Signal Integrity and timing aspects, the designer is in a nightmare situation between design and manufacturing stages of the design phase. A lot of efforts is required and the designers are worried until the physical board is working. This is an issue that the industry must resolve. Therefore Industry required an independent format that covered needs of todays and tomorrow’s PCB designs. There emerged IPC-2581 in March 2004 from the combination of GenCAM (created by Router Solutions, Inc.) and ODB++ (created by Valor Computerized Systems). IPC-2581 is an independently developed and maintained format. IPC-2581 comes in XML representation. It contains PCB fabrication, PCB assembly and test data that manufacturer(s) would need for tooling, manufacturing, assembling.

 

Mentor acquisitioned Router Solutions in 2007 and 1 year later killed their involvement with supporting GenCAM and its updates. Valor only wanted to be part of IPC-2581 for the fame of being called a “world standard”. After Mentor acquisitioned Valor in 2010 they ended their involvement with ODB++ in IPC-2581 and the standard was left with no team members except Dieter Bergman at IPC. Dieter desperately tried to communicate with CAD vendors to create IPC-2581 export but no one listened or did anything. It wasn’t until Cadence realized that their biggest competitor Mentor now owned all the fabrication and assembly data formats going forward into the future. It was a rumor that IPC-2581 would die after Dieter retired however, Cadence jumped in and started the IPC-2581 consortium with the help of Mike Buetow at UP Media and Zuken. Then Downstream and Wise jumped in and that’s where it is right now. The only thing that’s left is to have the fabrication front end “Valor (Mentor) Genesis” read IPC-2581. They have the knowledge base to do that, but not the willingness because Mentor wants ODB++ to be the world standard format for fabrication and assembly.

 

The industry needs IPC-2581 and ODB++ to compete with each other for constant improvement and affordable solutions. The industry must come together and rally support for IPC-2581 or they will pay in the end for the ODB++ monopoly.

 



Posted By: sgdavies
Date Posted: 19 Mar 2013 at 7:29am
Thanks Tom, very informative post. My problem is I need quality DFM/DFA Verification reports similar to Vsure or similar, if one of the mentioned IPC-2581 vendors software verification tools could do this, then I would then only need to convince our EMS. I would personally love to go with IPC-2581 and have IPC standards for everything.

I know Sanmina accept IPC-2581 for manufacture and Assembly, I have emailed them to ask which software they would use to DMF/DFA Verification.


Posted By: sgdavies
Date Posted: 22 Mar 2013 at 2:44am
Update:

Sanmina, at the moment would not be able to do DFM/DFA verification with IPC-2581 although they did say it was the better format to use to imply design intent, they say that they currently use Valor Triology, however they say "Valor" I guess they mean (Mentor), are trying to incorporate the IPC-2581 into their tools (interesting!)

Another conversation i had with a Mentor Lead AE regarding a conversation about Valor NPI (Esure), I guess its the same software as the Triology,, "it wasn't the first time it was requested to get an IPC-2581 import, and Mentor would probably be supporting this in the future" (but im not sure if this was just sales talk or not)

So reading between the lines, it sounds like Mentor maybe be seeing the light (so to speak).
just wanted to share this with everybody who is interested in implementing IPC-2581. if anybody has more news please let me know.


Posted By: Tom H
Date Posted: 22 Mar 2013 at 7:09am
I think that it's in Mentor's best interest to develop IPC-2581, because it's a hybrid of GenCAM and ODB++ with the intention of making it better than ODB++. After all, Mentor acquisitioned the creator for GenCAM (Router Solutions - RSI) and the creator of ODB++ (Valor) and both RSI and Valor were on the IPC-2581 committee from 2001 - 2007 and met regularly to develop the standard.
 
IPC-2581 is similar to the Linux OS as it's an open source code with a consortium developing it. Hopefully there will only be one flavor.
 
Competition is good for the industry. It increases development and new innovation and forces for vendors to be price competitive. Mentor is trying to create a monopoly and that's their business model and there's nothing wrong with trying. It's best for their president, employees and stockholders but bad for the rest of the industry.
 
Thanks for the update.
 


Posted By: Tom H
Date Posted: 17 Apr 2013 at 7:38am
Frontline's Genesis CAM tool is the PCB fabrication shop's most popular front-end tool for DRC checking, panelization and setting up your designs for manufacturing. Mentor Graphics owns 50% of Frontline (Genesis).
 
They just announced in a flyer that they will be supporting IPC-2581 in Genesis V10.
 
Here's the new flyer - uploads/3/Genesis_v10.zip" rel="nofollow - Genesis_v10.zip
 


Posted By: sgdavies
Date Posted: 17 Apr 2013 at 8:00am
Fantastic Tom, Thanks, I have also been told from Mentor's technical marketing, that in the next version of Valor NPI, IPC-2581 will be supported.
"So let the games begin"


Posted By: jameshead
Date Posted: 17 Apr 2013 at 8:20am
I love that phrase "Eliminates unexpected behavior in the Resize operation"!

Sounds like they're advertising the fact they've fixed a bug. LOL


Posted By: sgdavies
Date Posted: 17 Apr 2013 at 11:57pm
"Bug" what? Never.. LOL they are features Dear Sir Wink So they have corrected an unadvertised feature Clown


Posted By: Mattylad
Date Posted: 28 Apr 2013 at 12:10pm
CAM350 can import IPC-2581 format too.

What CAD packages can actually output it?


Posted By: Tom H
Date Posted: 28 Apr 2013 at 4:00pm
Right now, Intercept's Pantheon, Cadence Allegro, Zuken CR-5000 can export IPC-2581 data but more will come soon.
 
Here is the main website - http://www.ipc2581.com/" rel="nofollow - http://www.ipc2581.com/  
 
Here is the committee list - http://www.ipc2581.com/index.php/members-on-top" rel="nofollow - http://www.ipc2581.com/index.php/members-on-top  
 


Posted By: Matthew Lamkin
Date Posted: 02 May 2013 at 8:52am
Three.

So they are not hurrying to output it then Smile


Posted By: sgdavies
Date Posted: 08 May 2013 at 5:56am
Hi Matthew, More like dragging their feet, but 3 is sufficient for now, I have looked into this allot the last few months, most manufacturing and assembly suppliers will try to ignore "intelligent design intent" for as long as they can get away with it. however there are allot of DFM/DFA CAM tools out there which support it, Even the mighty Valor NPI, I have got word will be supporting this in their next release, and so is Oribitech.
 
So looking into my crystal ball I see a right royal rumble in the future between "intelligent design intent" ODB++ vs: IPC-2581, I am not sure what will become of Gerber, maybe it will always be around for the people who just want a cheap solution to their design without any verification.
 


Posted By: Tom H
Date Posted: 08 May 2013 at 7:35am

Thousands of PCB design layouts are done using Free CAD tools provided by PCB fabrication shops where there is no Gerber data or ODB++. Just send the entire PCB design file to the manufacturer where you got the software. If you want to use a different manufacturer, they will provide you with Gerber data files for $150.

 

Now Downstream Technology has jumped into that business with the release of their new PCB design tool "SoloPCB" - http://www.fabstream.com%3chttp/www.fabstream.com/" rel="nofollow - www.fabstream.com<http://www.fabstream.com/

  

Press release – http://www.fabstream.com/news-detail.php?DownStream-Technologies-Launches-FabStream-2" rel="nofollow -

 

Totally free CAD tool with integrated schematic. This PCB design solution is mostly used by EE engineers to get quick prototypes for cheap. But will this become popular with PCB designers? Regardless, PCB Libraries, Inc. fully supports SoloPCB in PCB Footprint Expert V2013 for PCB library automation.

 


Posted By: gjcarter
Date Posted: 18 Feb 2014 at 1:18pm
Our company has successfully fabricated bare boards using IPC-2581 with four fabricators including CC Electronics in Europe, Sierra Circuits and Sanmina in the U.S., and TTM-OPC in China. Our design flow includes Cadence SPB v16.6 for schematic capture/PCB layout and Wise VisualCAM for DFM/DFA checks, pallet design, and panelization of the single piece into the pallet.

Sierra Circuits, Sanmina, and TTM-OPC all used Genesis V10 to import the 2581 data and fabricate the bare boards. While working with Sierra Circuits and Sanmina we were performing a number of comparative checks between ODB++ and IPC-2581 in Genesis, this being the first opportunity we had to utilize Frontline Genesis V10. The results were very positive. When we engaged TTM-OPC we elected to only send the IPC-2581 data (No additional drawings, data, or external documentation). TTM-OPC were successful in building the bare boards using only an IPC-2581 dataset.

Leveraging the recent release of IPC-2581B we are now in the process of regressing PCB Assembly through our in-house Manufacturing (primarily Fuji SMT lines) using IPC-2581 data. We expect to have this fully operational by mid-year. We are also exploring the new capability introduced in Revision B that enables a collaborative exchange to enable PCB Stackup development between the OEM and Fabricator eliminating the use of spreadsheets, jpegs, and PDF files and instead using a subset of the IPC-2581B schema to exchange the BOM and parametric information of the materials selected to meet the design requirements.

IPC-2581B has come a long, long way....



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