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sgdavies View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote sgdavies Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: IPC-2581
    Posted: 14 Mar 2013 at 2:19am
Hi All,

Just wondering, If anybody yet on here had made the leap to exporting IPC-2581 to manufacture? If so I would be very interested to know your results, good,bad, ugly etc, and especially if you are into getting Quality DFM/DFA Reports from the IPC-2581 database from your chosen EMS? 

Currently im in negotiations with our EMS companies to get DFM/DFA reporting, most of them have never heard of IPC-2581, and are even reluctant to go with ODB ++ (I want to move away from Gerber)

I have tested both formats here, and love the Downstream viewer for IPC-2581, on the other hand the Mentor viewer for Cadence ODB Inside (seriously sucks) and you have to keep on doing translations to use the thing (when it works).

Anyways any and all thoughts are welcome Smile

Regards
Stephen Grant-Davies
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Tom H View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Tom H Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Mar 2013 at 7:15am
PCB Libraries, Inc. is on the IPC-2581 committee (Consortium). The standard is being developed under the leadership of Cadence. The IPC-2581 standard has been around for 13 years. The only reason why Cadence is spearheading this effort is because Mentor Graphics acquisitioned Valor and acquired ODB++. So Cadence is trying to create an alternative "intelligent" manufacturing interface to compete with ODB++.
 
Here is the IPC-2581 member page:
 
However, Mentor Graphics is fighting hard to keep ODB++ on top of the industry's top manufacturing interface and they are forming their own committee (Consortium).
 
Check this out:

http://www.pcb007.com/pages/zone.cgi?a=90045

 

The Valor (Mentor) Genesis v10 can support IPC-2581. The license is US $5,150.

 

You will see that over 50% of the IPC-2581 members are also ODB++ members.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote sgdavies Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Mar 2013 at 7:20am
Cheers Tom Thumbs Up
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote sgdavies Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Mar 2013 at 7:39am
Hi Tom, Regarding the IPC-2581 import, Forgive me as i dont know too much about the Mentor Product line or how they are marketed, but are you talking about the Vsure Product? or?
http://www.mentor.com/products/pcb-system-design/fabrication-assembly-test/vsure/

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Tom H Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Mar 2013 at 7:44am
Valor (Mentor) front end for PCB fabrication supplied by Orbitech is "Genesis".
 
Mentor owns 50% of Orbitech. Orbitech provides the hardware for direct imaging and Mentor provides the software for the hardware.
 
Valor Enterprise is a PCB design DRC checking tool which also outputs ODB++. Enterprise turned into "Vsure".
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote sgdavies Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Mar 2013 at 5:33am
It would be nice if mentor Vsure imported IPC-2581, but that might be an up-hill battle.

Does anybody know how good DFM verification software is for IPC-2581? there are 3 viewers that i am aware of:-

1) Downstream technology
2) Wise
3) Easy Logic

So does anybody know how good the DFM verification software is from these vendors? and how good they are compared to Vsure? and of course there is the price?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Tom H Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Mar 2013 at 6:46am

Think DFA too, it’s very important.

 

Today, a surprisingly large percentage of PCB designs are sent to manufacturing through decades old approach of sending multiple files and formats. This approach can and does introduce many errors and ultimately adds extra cost through time spent on ensuring the data that is sent through multiple files and formats is consistent. In addition, there is cost incurred through scrap. Systems companies use this approach as they want to create internal processes that are not dependent on proprietary formats.

 

IPC-2581 provides the PCB industry with an opportunity to replace multiple files and formats with a neutral, open, globally supported standard and save millions of dollars caused by outdated numerous file formats used to drive PCB manufacturing. With the adoption of any standard, the supply chain has to adopt this standard from producers, consumers and supporters all using an open, neutral and efficient specification. It’s the old chicken and egg scenario – which comes first? Solving this age old problem is the focus of a new consortium of PCB design and supply chain companies who have come together to enable, facilitate and drive the adoption and usage of IPC-2581.

 

We have been using printed circuit board (PCB) formats for manufacturing and assembly which were defined 30 years ago mainly for numerically controlled manufacturing units.

 

With increased complexity of Printed Circuit Boards in terms of number of layers, number of pins / Vias, Miniaturization with ever decreasing form factor and sensitivity of traces due to Signal Integrity and timing aspects, the designer is in a nightmare situation between design and manufacturing stages of the design phase. A lot of efforts is required and the designers are worried until the physical board is working. This is an issue that the industry must resolve. Therefore Industry required an independent format that covered needs of todays and tomorrow’s PCB designs. There emerged IPC-2581 in March 2004 from the combination of GenCAM (created by Router Solutions, Inc.) and ODB++ (created by Valor Computerized Systems). IPC-2581 is an independently developed and maintained format. IPC-2581 comes in XML representation. It contains PCB fabrication, PCB assembly and test data that manufacturer(s) would need for tooling, manufacturing, assembling.

 

Mentor acquisitioned Router Solutions in 2007 and 1 year later killed their involvement with supporting GenCAM and its updates. Valor only wanted to be part of IPC-2581 for the fame of being called a “world standard”. After Mentor acquisitioned Valor in 2010 they ended their involvement with ODB++ in IPC-2581 and the standard was left with no team members except Dieter Bergman at IPC. Dieter desperately tried to communicate with CAD vendors to create IPC-2581 export but no one listened or did anything. It wasn’t until Cadence realized that their biggest competitor Mentor now owned all the fabrication and assembly data formats going forward into the future. It was a rumor that IPC-2581 would die after Dieter retired however, Cadence jumped in and started the IPC-2581 consortium with the help of Mike Buetow at UP Media and Zuken. Then Downstream and Wise jumped in and that’s where it is right now. The only thing that’s left is to have the fabrication front end “Valor (Mentor) Genesis” read IPC-2581. They have the knowledge base to do that, but not the willingness because Mentor wants ODB++ to be the world standard format for fabrication and assembly.

 

The industry needs IPC-2581 and ODB++ to compete with each other for constant improvement and affordable solutions. The industry must come together and rally support for IPC-2581 or they will pay in the end for the ODB++ monopoly.

 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote sgdavies Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Mar 2013 at 7:29am
Thanks Tom, very informative post. My problem is I need quality DFM/DFA Verification reports similar to Vsure or similar, if one of the mentioned IPC-2581 vendors software verification tools could do this, then I would then only need to convince our EMS. I would personally love to go with IPC-2581 and have IPC standards for everything.

I know Sanmina accept IPC-2581 for manufacture and Assembly, I have emailed them to ask which software they would use to DMF/DFA Verification.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote sgdavies Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Mar 2013 at 2:44am
Update:

Sanmina, at the moment would not be able to do DFM/DFA verification with IPC-2581 although they did say it was the better format to use to imply design intent, they say that they currently use Valor Triology, however they say "Valor" I guess they mean (Mentor), are trying to incorporate the IPC-2581 into their tools (interesting!)

Another conversation i had with a Mentor Lead AE regarding a conversation about Valor NPI (Esure), I guess its the same software as the Triology,, "it wasn't the first time it was requested to get an IPC-2581 import, and Mentor would probably be supporting this in the future" (but im not sure if this was just sales talk or not)

So reading between the lines, it sounds like Mentor maybe be seeing the light (so to speak).
just wanted to share this with everybody who is interested in implementing IPC-2581. if anybody has more news please let me know.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Tom H Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Mar 2013 at 7:09am
I think that it's in Mentor's best interest to develop IPC-2581, because it's a hybrid of GenCAM and ODB++ with the intention of making it better than ODB++. After all, Mentor acquisitioned the creator for GenCAM (Router Solutions - RSI) and the creator of ODB++ (Valor) and both RSI and Valor were on the IPC-2581 committee from 2001 - 2007 and met regularly to develop the standard.
 
IPC-2581 is similar to the Linux OS as it's an open source code with a consortium developing it. Hopefully there will only be one flavor.
 
Competition is good for the industry. It increases development and new innovation and forces for vendors to be price competitive. Mentor is trying to create a monopoly and that's their business model and there's nothing wrong with trying. It's best for their president, employees and stockholders but bad for the rest of the industry.
 
Thanks for the update.
 
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